Rich
Wed Jun 13 13:37:26 2007

So apropos.  The Mac has been about user experience.  The web is about portability and low-support costs for the enterprise.  What Steve foisted on us Monday for iPhone development was completely against everything that the Mac stands for.

Paul
Wed Jun 13 18:03:15 2007

Oh please. What's with all the melodrama? I know you guys aren't happy about what came out of the keynote, but come on dudes, get a grip.

Steve WAS forthright. He said, "Web 2.0 + AJAX." You guys are being all insulted because he just wasn't "forthright" in the way you wanted.

Mac developers are the best, but what's going on right now is a circle jerk of misery. You guys are caught in a feedback loop where the only outcome possible is more unhappiness.

So what if Steve said you can't do some stuff in a browser? He also pretty much stated he's not willing to let anyone outside Apple access to that technology right now. He said that you guys can develop great web apps today, but did I hear him say that web apps were going to be the equivalent of client apps?

It's clear Apple is holding the iPhone SDK close to its chest and is not willing to share it with the outside world (yet). Fine. You're unhappy about it. But don't try twisting Steve's words just so you can "prove" that he lied. His comment stands, but he didn't say anything to contradict it, either.

There are real insults and imagined insults. It's your choice to decide whether you want to wallow in the misery of the latter. And if you don't believe me, then I suggest looking in the mirror while you read some of your comments aloud, and then literally ask  yourself if being furiously insulted is going to solve any problems or make your users' lives better.

MacG
Wed Jun 13 20:08:02 2007

@Paul - Steve said things like "a very sweet solution" and "you can write amazing Web 2.0 + AJAX apps". Everything about this last bit of the keynote presentation pitched this as a GREAT solution, that this was awesome. Apple did NOT say "We can't let you in yet, but you can make web apps". They pitched this as THE perfect solution.

This is far from forthright when just a couple weeks earlier he'd been explaining to Walk Mossberg how having a specific desktop application was better than a web app, and how web apps weren't as good.

One week Steve says web apps aren't as good as desktop apps. The next week, he's telling developers they're all set for the iPhone, they can make web apps, and that that's "sweet". This is contradictory, there's no way around it. You can try to play games with it but it doesn't change the facts.

Paul
Wed Jun 13 20:40:15 2007

Quentin,

Thanks - I really appreciate not just your response, but also the way you expressed it. I've been frustrated as a Mac user with the overly negative attitude that's been going around the developer circles.

I feel for you guys, but from my perspective, I was getting seriously turned off by all the massive negativity. I totally understand the necessity of voices getting heard. Maybe it was Gruber's initial piece talking about how INSULTING it was - the dominating issue wasn't about the lack of an SDK. I wouldn't have expected Gruber to be so sensitive and thin-skinned.

But thank you for restoring my faith that you guys are one of the great Mac developers. And I hope you guys do develop something cool for the iPhone. There definitely hasn't been enough discussion about that....