JuniorFlip
Tue Dec 12 14:59:13 2006

When I saw the MacHeist bundle, I was excited - it definitely is a really good deal. But when I saw that they were trying to tell people that they were supporting Mac devs, well, I nearly spit out my drink.

Instead of buying the bundle, I bought a couple of the apps from it, directly from the developers. That is how you support developers, and now I will actually feel like I deserve support if I need it. Making people aware of new applications is great, but taking the lion's share of profit from it and claiming you're helping the developer is just exploitive. Pity the poor developers who got suckered...

Steve Streza
Tue Dec 12 16:35:59 2006

With regard to your last paragraph and that alone, it is important to remember that this is experimental marketing.  Only time will be able to tell if the publicity and upgrade revenue from MacHeist or similar promotions will be enough to offset the immediate gain.  So, while it's true that there isn't any evidence to suggest that this is a good thing for developers, it's also true that there isn't any evidence to suggest that this is a bad thing either.  It'll be interesting to come back a year from now and see how the developers of the bundle apps will feel about the results.

Kev
Tue Dec 12 16:52:32 2006

I don't think we'll have to wait years to find out whether this type of promotion works or doesn't work - there's already anecdotal evidence that it doesn't and many software developers have spoken to it's ineffectiveness. (I'm not a developer.)

John Gruber makes a typically sensible analysis of the whole situation:
http://daringfireball.net/2006/11/pinprick

His story links to the author of KIT which was featured on MacZOT and he writes:
"Perhaps most significant thing is that normal sales of KIT didn’t change one iota. What I was selling before the promotion was exactly the same as afterwards..."
http://reinventedsoftware.com/blog/2006/11/07/disco-inferno/

I recall a number of stories written in the same vein of thought so there seems to be a generally negative opinion and some early indications that this type of promotion doesn't work. On the other hand there haven't been any huge concrete gains reported by developers from such 'sales'.

Steve Harris
Tue Dec 12 19:00:13 2006

Ah, Kev saved me from having to post those links myself. It's worth checking the comments on my post as I got a few trackbacks from other developers who tried similar promotions with similar results.

Paul, I agree that it is very important to question the alleged merits of promotions like these, especially there seems to be so much contrary opinion out there. It's a shame that so far this can't be done without people getting attacked in public or private for merely asking whether it's alright.

An independent developer living on borderline money could go under after getting involved in some of these promotions if swamped with work and unable to remain competitive. I know it would have killed my business a couple of years ago and I suffered quite badly from my involvement in a MacZOT bundle. Sure, I can see benefits, but upgrade revenue can be a long way off. It's no use if you're out of business before then.

If these sorts of things really do have the developer in mind, then they should ideally work for everyone.

Step
Tue Dec 12 19:03:16 2006

There's something I haven't seen anyone taking into account in this discussion yet: I don't intend to use half of the bundle I'm purchasing (and from reading the forums of both MDA and MacHeist, I'm far from the only one).  So some developers are making money on an app I don't really want and don't intend to use.

A second point: I wouldn't buy ANY of those apps right now by themselves.  However, before you say that proves your point, let me clarify.  I wouldn't go out and buy any of these apps, but it may be that I find some of them indispensable, or at least really cool.  In that case, I would be much more likely to buy things from that developer (or even to buy upgrades / new versions), especially since I knew I got the first one cheap. 

From my perspective on getting on the Mac from Windows, the problem is not getting money from people (well that's one major problem), but the problem is first even convincing me (them) to TRY the software and even spend time evaluating / learning it.  MacHeist built, through plenty of effort, a good reason for me to trust them on this bundle.  Whether they'll prove out that trust they had earned, or lose it, is yet to be fully determined. 

Either way, I think they've pretty clearly put the focus on indie software developers (from a user perspective), whether or not the direct profit is going there.  So they HAVE raised awareness that you guys need sales to put food on the table and a roof over your head.  Personally I already knew that, and enjoy paying for a really good piece of software that solves a problem for me - the problem is most software I've found really isn't all that good, and introduces other problems when/if it solves another.

My take-away from this: those who participated (on the user-side) of MacHeist came away with a LOT of goodwill and sense of cooperation for the Mac community.  This negative attitude towards MacHeist making money off the whole thing (not to mention the charity percentage, which has been conveniently downplayed if not ignored) is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE for you, regardless of whether you're right or not.  Why bash someone who just gave a lot to people - so other developers can sympathize?  Is that smart?

To me personally, this just comes across really strongly as sour grapes, as if it's unfair that MacHeist made money because you don't think they've worked hard enough for it, and it doesn't seem to me you really have a very strong case for that.  True, some of the "work" and "value" is in very different terms than you as a developer speak, I'm quite aware of how different worldviews are (especially with our own developers at my company).  But I don't see a reason to assume so much ill intent on MacHeist' part (i.e. assuming they are hijacking that statement for pure monetary benefit on their own part) when the evidence seems to point otherwise.  I'm belaboring my point too much here, so either you can see my perspective or you can't.  I think I understand your points, I just think you're missing some information in forming the conclusion you did (and I don't understand why you thought it a good idea to vent about it - unless you believe all publicity is good publicity despite indicating otherwise).

Joshua
Tue Dec 12 19:51:02 2006

Step,

I disagree that the problem is first trying to convince people to try an app. Demo's are available for most modern Mac software, and it works really well. With the tech community (at which this bundle is aimed) demos are the norm and I would venture to say that most people purchasing this bundle have indeed heard of and tried these apps. The problems IS trying to get money.

And I want to be clear, I'm talking about the tech community here. The problem with the general public is getting them to try something, but that's about general exposure, not cheap apps, and it doesn't happen through a geek site like MacHeist.

Jake
Tue Dec 12 19:51:06 2006

Step: You sure sound like an astroturfer, a shill, like half of the comments on Gus's post too. Paul's post reads to me as being concerned for others, not "sour grapes". What the heck post did you read?

John Casasanta
Tue Dec 12 21:06:32 2006

Paul says: "I welcome full disclosure on the exact numbers behind MacHeist."

If we decided to include a Rogue Amoeba app in the bundle and you agreed to it, how would you feel if we publicly disclosed the private information about our financial arrangement?

What I will disclose is that people like you are completely failing to recognize the costs associated with organizing and running an event like this. Between staff, advertising, and various other miscellaneous costs, it's well over $100k.

Phillip Ryu
Tue Dec 12 21:15:41 2006

Hey Paul,

I just wanted to note that as soon as I saw Gus's post, I brought it to the attention of the developers involved in the bundle who were around at the time. I can assure you that they are all satisfied with how things are going... you can email them yourself if you'd like.

Or read Oliver's post on MacDev Center about his involvement with FotoMagico, and why it made sense for him:

Taking The Heist.

The fact is, we're happy. The bundle developers are happy. (For reals.) And the customers have been happy. And that, I would think, would be what I would call a rare "good deal for everyone involved".

DDA
Tue Dec 12 21:15:48 2006

"My understanding is that the developers taking part in the bundle are getting a flat rate for participating."

This is all based on Gus Mueller's rant about the deal he turned down; no one here knows what deals those whose apps are featured got nor do we know what it cost to put on MacHeist (remember, these guys had to build all those puzzles/websites and hire the voice talents, etc.) so all this strikes me as fairly bitter speculation from the outside.

Frankly, I'm very disappointed with Mueller for his comments and that will indeed affect whether or not I ever buy anything he sells. He had to admit that the developers went into it of their own free will so I'm having a really hard time understanding how they were cheated, swindled or taken advantage of.

In the end, I participated in MacHeist, bought the bundle and had a lot of fun so I'll surely support them in whatever else they do, provided I think it is a good deal. But those who dissed it without knowing the details? I'm much less inclined to support them.

WillT
Tue Dec 12 21:38:33 2006

$100,000? Seriously? Who are you trying to fool here John? The readers of this blog aren't idiots (as far as I've seen). $100,000 in expenses is covering what exactly?

One final question: Do you get those pants custom-tailored or what?

Phillip Ryu
Tue Dec 12 21:48:12 2006

Um, Will, those are our actual costs. Think bundle dev fees. (Higher than you probably think.) Think the amount of people working on the site. (So far, six designers, three web programmers, a voice artist, and more have/are working and are being compensated.) Think advertising. (Go to Macworld, or MacUpdate, or MacBytes, or MacMinute, or...)

Are groundless accusations a new fad or something?

John Casasanta
Tue Dec 12 21:54:33 2006

WillT  wrote: "One final question: Do you get those pants custom-tailored or what?"

Actually, I'm wearing a nicely broken-in pair of cargo pants that are about 6 years old. Comfy. :)

Sailor
Tue Dec 12 22:09:08 2006

I have to agree with Phillip. They had a great idea (in terms of how sucessfuly it obviously is), they executed it well, everyone's making money, more software is being sold - so what? Don't like it? So don't take part.

I'm sure the devs involved wouldn't be taking part if they don't think it's beneficial to them, they're not children. If they get ripped off I'm sure they'll tell the world all about it, they haven't, therefore they're probably familiar with the inside workings of the deal and are actually pretty happy. I just don't see the problem.

By the way I wouldn't even know about it if Daring Fireball hadn't gone on and on about it like its very existence was some kind of horrible personal insult. But I don't think it's sour grapes, it's just a kind of holier-than-thou attitude you guys have got, I don't like it at all..

My 2 cents. And no I didn't buy a MacHeist bundle, only thing I like there is TextMate, and I already own that.

Step
Tue Dec 12 22:31:41 2006

Joshua, Paul, thanks for the reasonable replies.  (Jake, not so much.  ;)  Though my response was, most likely unfairly, in response to a few of the posts I've read on this subject, not just Paul's post here.)

The point about tech users is a good one, I hadn't really looked at it from that angle.  However, I'm a very technical user, yet I've already gotten sick of downloading a demo and not being able to figure out if I want / can learn to use it before it expires.  There's not really a better solution to this that I can think of, but the end result for me (and most of the people I work with) is that we generally depend on word of mouth to find good software, otherwise I'm not really willing to try it out. 

That's really what I was trying to say - from (my) user perspective a lot of what you're saying doesn't technically matter to me.  I personally care, but I know a lot of my friends don't.  And in the end it has a limited impact on what I'm willing to pay for.  So I was trying to explain why I think MacHeist has been more beneficial in that regard than you're giving it credit for - but I could well be wrong about that.  I at least don't think it's the bad thing you do, but obviously it's not for you.  Guess if I'm wrong, and MacHeist is ripping off the developers that signed up, then I'd be pretty ticked off. 
Though I imagine we ought to be hearing from them, not from you, if that turns out to be the case. . .

Anyway, hope that was helpful in some way.  If not, sorry I wasted your time.  :)

David Teare
Tue Dec 12 23:34:50 2006

As an Independant Mac Developer, I for one applaud Phill's work on MacHeist and by extension Brian Ball's work for MacZOT! whom also gets feces thrown at him regularly.

My partner and I are new on the scene and MacHeist and ZOT! have been instrumental in increasing our exposure.

Have sales been hurt? No; they doubled after the ZOT! and then doubled again after the heist.

Have support risen? Yes, about 500% in the first few days, but this was because of holes in our product and they have been fixed now (we might have never found them if we were still selling only a few hundred copies a month).  We never feared the increase in support; WE WAITED ANXIOUSLY FOR IT AND WORKED OUR ASSES OFF TO MAKE THE NEW CUSTOMERS HAPPY SO THEY WOULD HELP US MAKE THE BEST DAMN PASSWORD MANAGER POSSIBLE.

What I love about the Mac is the passionate users.  I FEED on their passion; it's what keeps me going.  The Heist and ZOT! has netted us something 1000 times more valuable than cash: passionate users.

BTW - if Brian ever released my sales from ZOT!, I would kick his a**, so I don't see how you can demand this from Phil.  You are trying to protect the developers after all, right?

Roustem Karimov
Tue Dec 12 23:37:34 2006

Just a few notes:

1. As you can see from my blog
http://softwaretrenches.com/2006/11/give_and_you_shall_receive.html
as well as Dan Messing's post
http://www.stuntblog.com/2006/08/03/zottin-it-up-again/
MacZOT can help shareware products.

2. Regarding the customer support -- you can see it as a liability or you can see as an investment. From the very beginning we chose to see it as an investment and it is paying off big time. Big corporations pay millions to interrupt people and force them just to notice their products. Vonage estimates the cost of customer acquisition of $100 per new customer. Compare that to a person coming to you instead and asking about your product.

3. It takes a lot effort, talent and luck to create an event that can capture imagination of over 25,000 people. We really need to cultivate the passion for shareware created by MacHeist.

John Gruber
Wed Dec 13 00:38:43 2006

"Sailor" wrote: "By the way I wouldn't even know about it if Daring Fireball hadn't gone on and on about it like its very existence was some kind of horrible personal insult."

I've never even mentioned MacHeist before today:

http://daringfireball.net/s/macheist

David Teare
Wed Dec 13 00:55:59 2006

[blockquote]
My philosophy has always been that every support email we get is a potential sale - the user took the time to try our software, and even when he had an issue, he contacted us. We work insanely hard to answer support rapidly and responsively. I can't get behind the idea that some devs have of only offering support for paid users.
[/blockquote]

+1!

However, where I think we begin to differ is when you go on to say "the more support you have to do, the more it's costing you".  This was my major objection to Mr. Gruber's Pinprick article.

The more support requests we get for 1Passwd the more we polish the app to remove those support issues.  I admit that some days I would rather be coding a new feature than adding a "Setup Assistant", but all-in-all the response has been great b/c each support issue would (I'm guessing) hold back 10 others from ever buying the app.

I guess what I'm saying is Customer Support should be viewed as an Asset, not a Liability.  Your customers' feedback is the asset that gives you an edge over the big guys (IBM, Microsoft, etc).

Zach Marshall
Wed Dec 13 01:12:08 2006

John, I believe he was referring to your pinprick article about bundles in general, though I concede that his pronoun usage is ambiguous in this case.

Rachel Faith
Wed Dec 13 10:01:12 2006

This is sad, but I am not at all surprised by it.  As one of the "fans" who "voted" in his "Dream Ap" contest, then became somewhate of a critical voice when I began to suspect some "home brew" activities, which finally cumulated in a "winner" that was not determined by the actual vote of the "we the people" but by Philip himself after he alleged there were fraud votes and discounted some...

Well, all that left a pit in my stomach and now I hear this mess and it requires no doubt on my part to believe the old line that says "There he goes again".

I hope the community quickly exposes and deals with the obvious self promoting parasites that try and make their living off the good hard work of others.

Most Sincerely,

RFA

jeff
Wed Dec 13 10:10:34 2006

David, it's great that you consider your support to be a company asset, but you can't deny that support COSTS MONEY. Every new customer is simultaneously a potential (or previous) revenue and cost. Users cost money. The benefit of electronic sales is that you have very, very low upfront costs. But the back-end support costs technically have no limit. Sure, it might be a pretty low slope, but there's not end.

And, with all due respect for someone who probably does great customer service for a fine product, the support your provide for a single-function application pales in comparison to a more complex, open-ended application (like AudioHijack or Fission). 1Passwd is a nice-to-have app, but TextMate, DEVONthink, and others are, for many people, central to their lifelihood. It is not an apples and oranges, but almost.

Finally, there's another world of difference between the little apps that guys code part time and those that are full-time, career independent developers. I don't know where 1Passwd fits in, but I'd be surprised to discover that you can support a family on what you make from that app. To presume that the economics that work for a part-time, hobby project are good for an industry is, frankly, absurd.

WillT
Wed Dec 13 10:27:57 2006

Hey, look at that - a direct question (actually, a bunch of them) that could clear things up, and neither Ryu nor John answer.

Are the developers getting a flat rate, or a percentage?

How about it guys? Where did you go? Too scared to answer?

sapere
Wed Dec 13 10:44:12 2006

WTF. Why is this guy whining about this? Obviously, they wanted to participate and appear happy to have done it.

This "delicious generation" sour grapes crap is getting old.

Jake
Wed Dec 13 11:02:01 2006

"Sour grapes" again, huh? Can't you astroturfers at least come up with your own phrases? Is there some central astroturf location you're all coming from? Cripes, no one is whining except people who are astroturfing for MacHeist.

There is a pretty simple question being asked tho - are the developers benefitting from more sales, or not? I came back thinking I might see an answer, but nope, nothing new, just more crap.

If you don't have an answer to that, then shut up about "sour grapes" - there's no "sour grapes" here. I don't see any fruit at all.

sapere
Wed Dec 13 11:42:55 2006

@Jake

"There is a pretty simple question being asked tho - are the developers benefitting from more sales, or not? I came back thinking I might see an answer, but nope, nothing new, just more crap."

Hmmm, let's see. Either they are benefiting financially or not. That's kind of, by very definition, their business and not yours. Quit worrying about it and bemoaning it as a "sign of the fall of the mac", etc.

Obviously the MH participant developers wanted to do this. Why is everyone talking about this as if they were forced against their will?

I can see it now...

Old crotchedy developer:
"I know you think you want to do this, but you really don't. It's gonna suck!"

MH Participant Developer:
"No, I really do. Thanks though."

OCD:
"Did you hear me? I said don't do it. It's a terrible idea and it hurts the entire Mac community."

MHPD:
"... What?!? It's a good deal for consumers and me (clue: that's why I did it). So, as I said before, I'm going to do this."

OCD:
"NO SERIOUSLY WTF!! I SAID DON'T DO IT! THINK OF TEH CHILDRENZ!!"

MHPD:
"Dude, quit being so dramatic. LEAVE ME ALONE."

jeff
Wed Dec 13 12:44:41 2006

@sapere, it's not histrionics. The word of the day is "exploitation." MHPD is getting exploited by Ryu. Yes, it's real revenue. No, it's not fair. OCD is only crotchety in that he refuses to be Ryu's bitch, and he points out that MHPD is. And he tells people about it. Crotchety? Perhaps, but also honest.

jeff
Wed Dec 13 12:53:30 2006

@sapere, it's not histrionics. The word of the day is "exploitation." MHPD is getting exploited by Ryu. Yes, it's real revenue. No, it's not fair. OCD is only crotchety in that he refuses to be Ryu's bitch, and he points out that MHPD is. And he tells people about it. Crotchety? Perhaps, but also honest.

sapere
Wed Dec 13 13:07:44 2006

@jeff

If, as a developer, you are asked to participate in MacHeist and you find it to be financially exploitive or otherwise unfair, you don't participate. If you do participate, it is safe to assume you have your own good reasons for doing so. Again, that's by very definition their business and not yours. You are in no position to tell participant developers how this is or is not bad for them.

Besides, you just seem to be wrong:
http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2006/12/taking_the_heist.html

DTNick
Wed Dec 13 13:25:07 2006

Sapere,
"WTF. Why is this guy whining about this? Obviously, they wanted to participate and appear happy to have done it."

I have yet to see where there are any sour grapes in this here post. The critics of MacHeist have all posed legitimate questions. Like, to what degree are the developers actually getting their fair share?  I think John Gruber says it best: "Just because someone is satisfied with a bad deal doesn’t mean it isn’t a bad deal."

Jed
Wed Dec 13 13:36:42 2006

This is getting out of hand and almost everyone seems to be missing the point. Paul and Gus share the same complaint - namely that someone is presuming to speak on their behalf with "The Week of the Independent Mac Developer".

As Independent Mac Developers they take exception to that phrase with good reason.

You should never attempt to speak on behalf of a larger community unless you absolutely 100% have their backing to do so. My guess is that without such provocation there would have been little to no pushback.

As for Macheist itself, I'd love to hear Wil Shipley's perspective sometime... because this could start to get really funny if it got any hotter. ;-)

sapere
Wed Dec 13 13:43:31 2006

@DTNick

There are absolutely no good complaints against MH, leaving me to believe this is merely sour grapes. Do you think anyone buys the critics' claim to be looking out for the best financial deal for the developers? Hell, the developers agreed to the deal in the first place, they think it's in their interests!

So why do you care? No, let's discuss what this is really about: Phil Ryu - Mr. MyDreamApp, himself. There is a lot of resentment about his simple and creative marketing, his ability to grab headlines, and how easily he appears to make easy money. He's turned mac development on its head, and made it look beautiful and easy. Naturally, this draws some resentment from the more established, crotchety old mac developers.

Anyway, this can't possibly be about the developers. They agreed to do it! Besides, it's none of your business what they negotiated with MH (literally).

Bill I
Wed Dec 13 13:46:07 2006

@Paul

You're welcome to challenge the basic idea behind the pro-MH arguments, but please understand that like everything else, how you sell shareware must evolve. If you don’t like how it’s evolving currently, that’s fine, but don’t be surprised when your applications aren't selling as well because you didn’t market or raise awareness for your application as well as someone else.

And please PLEASE don't ignore the posts from the developers who actually participated in MacHeist.  So far, they've all been notably positive.  Here's  an interview with Wil Shipley of Delicious Monster who is clearly happy with the deal he made:
http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2006/12/13/6275

And here's an article from Oliver Breidenbach of FotoMagico who also participated in MacHeist and is also obviously happy with his deal:
http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2006/12/taking_the_heist.html

sapere
Wed Dec 13 13:49:48 2006

@Jed

"You should never attempt to speak on behalf of a larger community unless you absolutely 100% have their backing to do so."

This is NOT the issue. Give me a friggin' break. You are offended because he spoke for the independent Mac software development community? Come on! Seriously... this is what got you guys so riled up? I don't buy it.

jeff
Wed Dec 13 14:16:28 2006

@ sapere, here's what's got me so riled up: the independent mac software world is apparently so sucky that developers will take really crappy terms (from what I've heard, and Oliver Breidenbach doesn't seem to contradict this evidence) and then allow Ryu to a) make really good money and b) crow about what a service he's doing the community.

Face it, whether or not the devs are happy about the deal, it is a sucky deal. No self-respecting IP lawyer would approve such lousy terms. Really, what Ryu is doing, WHETHER OR NOT THE DEVS LIKE IT is closer to loan sharkery than to real business. It appears that business is so crappy that the developers are willing to take this crap.

Oh, and then there's you. You're astroturfing like MH is actually a good deal for devs. You can't seem to come to terms that what is an exceptionally good deal for users, and is a really, really exceptional deal for Ryu is actually comparatively crappy for the devs. (Note, when one party has a great deal and the other has a comparatively crappy deal = suckiness.) Why are you defending this? THAT's what I don't get. Do you have ties to the mob?

jeff
Wed Dec 13 14:24:35 2006

@sapere, Whoa. I got out of hand there. Sorry. This really isn't a big issue for me and, apparently, I've gotten caught up in some histrionics myself. Please forgive my boorishness.

Dave
Wed Dec 13 14:29:14 2006

Blues artists in the 1950s and 60s also signed contracts "knowing what they were getting into".

Raeson
Wed Dec 13 17:53:38 2006

The only thing this bloggpost has created is BAD pr for rogueamoeba.
I mean, rogueamoeba was totally unknown for me until I found a link to this blog from the MacHeist-forum. Yes, I heard about "Audio Hijack Pro" before but didn't know rogueamoeba was the developer.

This is kind of sad cause I like the idea of products like Airfoil and Audio Hijack , but reading this blogcomment by Paul gives me a "bad vibe".

I see it like this. MacHeist is a big ad-campaign. Usually, the producer pays alot of money to an ad-agency and they produce PR and commercials for the product/service/whatever.
Instead of paying MacHeist alot of money to make an ad-campaign the developers cut their prices and MH takes a % of the sales.
The developer gets publicity and spotlight on their products among Mac-users who might never heard about that particular shareware. 
Those Mac-app developers who felt they might benefit from this kind of deal accepted the terms, those who didn't (like Paul here in his post) are trying to get free PR by bashing MacHeist and the developers who participated.
The problem with this kind of "riding-the-MacHeist-wave-by-bashing"-stunt is more bad PR for rogueamoeba who lost me as a potential customer with this kind of BS.

Justin Williams
Wed Dec 13 18:00:01 2006

I keep reading this "I will never buy your products because of this post" both here and at Gus' blog, and I don't get it. 

If a user said something like that to me over me stating a valid opinion, I'd probably do a backflip. Who needs customers like that?

Dave
Wed Dec 13 18:14:54 2006

^^ Yeah, wtf?

"I'm going to boycott you for having an opinion contrary to mine!" yeah, that makes sense. I think Steve Jobs is an egomaniacal douchebag, but that doesn't make me want to switch to Windows.

Personally, I commend Gus, Paul and Gruber for taking a stance on this thing. Phil Ryu has a creepily slick marketing ability, for sure, which I find utterly distasteful.

And yes, you can look at it as a big "ad campaign" or whatever, but in what industry, perhaps aside from prostitution, does the marketer get upwards of 70% of the profit over the talent? That's just insane.

Bruno L
Wed Dec 13 19:21:16 2006

"but in what industry, perhaps aside from prostitution, does the marketer get upwards of 70% of the profit over the talent?"

That is just precious :-)

former mac dev
Wed Dec 13 23:15:45 2006

@Raeson

you're a dumbass.

@everyone else

whatever you think of it, how is voicing your opinion bad? paul has some great points. will has some good points. saying your not going to buy someone's software because of it just shows that you would never actually buy it in the first place. thanks for your two cents.

@dave

well said.


some people always think that their marketing is a good idea. hell, someone signed onto the "welcome to the social" tagline. history will show how it turns out. no need to bag on the people who are expressing themselves thoughtfully.

Marc Edwards
Thu Dec 14 06:44:36 2006

"The only thing this bloggpost has created is BAD pr for rogueamoeba."

While I think this thing has blown out of proportion, and I think the developers in question will know pretty soon if it was worth their while, comments like that are hilarious. This isn't Paul and his RogueAmoeba company that you've never heard of, there's some pretty big names all standing up and saying this is BS.

The great thing is all this has ended well. No matter what happens, developers will be more critical of MH and similar schemes, and users have seen both sides of the story.

I hope the charities did ok out of all this. :)

Have a good night all.

Marc Edwards
Thu Dec 14 06:44:36 2006

"The only thing this bloggpost has created is BAD pr for rogueamoeba."

While I think this thing has blown out of proportion, and I think the developers in question will know pretty soon if it was worth their while, comments like that are hilarious. This isn't Paul and his RogueAmoeba company that you've never heard of, there's some pretty big names all standing up and saying this is BS.

The great thing is all this has ended well. No matter what happens, developers will be more critical of MH and similar schemes, and users have seen both sides of the story.

I hope the charities did ok out of all this. :)

Have a good night all.

Mr. Anonymous #515
Thu Dec 14 15:10:49 2006

"but in what industry, perhaps aside from prostitution, does the marketer get upwards of 70% of the profit over the talent?"

Can't think of one.

(What about the RIAA?)

I'm trying not to think about that one.

James Taylor
Thu Dec 14 17:18:47 2006

I am an avid reader of Daring Fireball, and I had never heard of MacHeist until reading the articles about it today. They prompted me to go and buy a copy of the bundle.

What sealed the deal was the donation to charity. That's huge. 25% of your purchase goes to charity. Not $1, or even $5 - but twenty-five percent of $49.

Plus I get a bunch of Mac software to try. Most of them I am only mildly interested in - not enough to pay full price (except for DevonThink, which I already have). But I will now try them all, which I would never have done with only a demo.

Even if I don't use them myself, I am influential among the Mac users I work with. I will now recommend those applications to users that suit those applications. Something which I might not use, may be perfect for somebody else - particularly as most users don't have much third-party software, while I have it coming out of my ears. I can recognize that my needs are very different to others. So now I can recommend consumer-level software that I have actually tried.

One great feature of the MacHeist is that you can "gift" licenses to other people, if you already own the software. What a great way to actually get a broader audience of users, who would otherwise never bother seeking out an application online and trying a demo.

Isn't word-of-mouth the most effective advertising?

I really don't understand what the fuss is all about. Most of these dvelopers would not be getting any money from me anyway, but I still get to give to charity, and spread word-of-mouth.

Personally, I think the most ridiculous thing is the people who call those who think that Macheist is not a bad idea "astroturfers." Do you even know what astroturfing means?

Some people are acting like the Mac developers are some sort of charity, or grassroots movement. This is the only way that the term "astroturfing" would have any relevance. But that's not the case. They are businesses who want to make money. Deciding whether to participate in MacHeist or not is purely a business decision - nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, the term "astroturfing" would be more appropriate in reference to those who invoke the mythical sense of "community" and "independence" while decrying Macheist. I don't think they are really concerned about community - they are concerned about money. A loose collection of businesses is not a community. Heck, Mac users aren't even a community.

I find it very disturbing that developers would bash other developers who make a different business decision than themselves. There's a kind of mentality here that reminds me of extremist political/religious organizations - if you're not a "true believer" and don't do what the priests of opinion say - then you are a witch and should be burned.

Needless to say, "burn the witch" is not a good way to encourage innovation and new ideas. Some of the comments sound like they are by jaded people who just want to stay in a rut - who want everything to stay the same.

Screw that. The internet has totally changed the way businesses work today, mostly for the good. Don't be like those people who belittled the internet and never thought you could make a living doing business online. The irony is that many Mac shareware developers embraced business on the internet, and were innovative leaders in it. But now they want things to stop evolving, and everything to stand still at their comfort level. Much like the brick-and-mortars who felt threatened by online business.

Marc Edwards
Thu Dec 14 19:34:16 2006

@ James Taylor:
"the term astroturfing describes formal public relations (PR) campaigns which seek to create the impression of being a spontaneous, grassroots behavior. Hence the reference to the "AstroTurf" (artificial grass) is a metaphor to indicate "fake grassroots" support."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

I suspect they're suggesting that all or some of the support for MH is fake, and derived from MH staff. If that is that case, then astroturfing is the PERFECT name for it.

James Taylor
Thu Dec 14 21:22:25 2006

---
"the term astroturfing describes formal public relations (PR) campaigns which seek to create the impression of being a spontaneous, grassroots behavior."
---

Precisely. Which is why i think it more aptly describes the developers who are bashing Macheist, in the name of "community," when what they are interested in is profits.

---
"I suspect they're suggesting that all or some of the support for MH is fake, and derived from MH staff. If that is that case, then astroturfing is the PERFECT name for it. "
---

Is there any evidence for this? I'm just a normal Mac user, and I'm pretty enthusiastic about the concept. most of the people on the Macheist forums appear to be the same - just average joes who like Mac software. I'd really like to see what evidence they have for making such inflammatory, divisive statements.

On the other hand, the people bashing Macheist seem to be developers or "big name" pundits who have a vested interest in bashing Macheist - which makes me suspect them much more strongly of being astroturfers.

I don't think the term is really appropriate in either instance - as astroturfing is classically associated with companies promoting themselves as being "green" and starting fake groups to promote that image. Yeah, it also refers to the grassroots thing, but has so often been around environmental issues.

Where is it that Macheist claims to be a "grassroots" organization? And it is easy to see where the bashers claim to be grassroots - by the way they constantly invoke "community" and "suffering developers" and want to tell us what is good for the community.

James Taylor
Thu Dec 14 22:23:15 2006

I should add a P.S here:

"Astroturfing" usually refers to powerful monied interests, big corporations. Hence "astro" - like "astrodome" and the actual fake grass.

Where are the big corporations in Macheist? I have just learned that the guy who runs Macheist is an 18 year-old. I just don't see where the large, powerful interests are in this. We aren't talking about millions of dollars, we are talking about thousands of dollars. Any "astro" corporation would not be interested in such small change.

I'd say the Macheist people are smaller than many Mac developers who are considered independent.

I've also noticed many comments that show an appalling level of animosity towards Phil Ryu personally. Why so much anger focused on him? Is he really so evil?

Ted
Fri Dec 15 12:16:56 2006

People like Wil Shipley don't believe they are losing out. As they see it, they will make their real money off of people who upgrade from DL 1.0 to DL 2.0 when it comes out. Sure this is a gamble on Wils part, but look at where DL is in its life cycle. The app is nearly two years old, and it has reached the end of it's life cycle. Everybody knows that DL 2.0 is coming close on the heels of Leopard, so they are holding off from buying 1.0. By taking part in Macheist, Delicous Monster gets the following:
1. Increased exposure. The net has been completely abuzz with the Macheist promo all week. That type of buzz isn't easy to generate, especially for a week long.
2. An increase in it's 1.0 userbase, which gives them...
3. An increase in potential upgraders to the 2.0 version.

I think someone else hit the nail on the head when they said this was "experimental" marketing. In the end, the developers invovled may feel they got a good deal out of it, or they may feel they got a raw deal out of it. Since they are the ones who took the gamble, shouldn't it be them who decides whether MacHeist was good for the independent Mac developer or not?

As for the author of KIT and his experience with MacZOT, there is an underlying factor to participation in MacZOT that nobody really acknowledges. Simply put - even if you have a great, polished piece of software, and it is offered at a discount, if the general public really has no use for it, then you are still going to find it hard to sell it. For me, personally, KIT falls in to this category. Nicely done app, but I have no use for it. Same goes for Delicious Library. But now that I've gotten it from MacHeist, I may actually start using it in earnest. And who knows - maybe now I will discover that I have a use for it. And if that happens, I'll be one of the first to upgrade to 2.0.

Steve Lang
Fri Dec 15 13:29:15 2006

1. There seems to be some confusions resulting from combing 2 separate issues- a) is this a good deal for developers from an economic standpoint, and b) is MacHeist appropriate in its marketing?

I think it's important to separate the 2. #1 is simply about a decision each developer can obviously make for themselves. And open discussion helps this. This is not about right or wrong, it's pretty much dollars and sense.

I think the second issue is a bit more problematic. I think if there is significant fallout from this, then next time the MacHeist organizers might choose their marketing messages a bit more carefully. Again, open discussion helps everyone here.

2. Of course anyone can ask MacHeist to reveal its numbers. But not revealing your numbers doesn't mean they're necessarily hiding anything either IMO. I could ask a software company for a breakdown of their revenues, but I don't think it's appropriate. They're selling something, and I decide whether the price is worth the benefit of the software.

The same goes for MacHeist. They offer a business proposition to software developers, and the developers can decide whether or not to take part.

I would hope, however, that the developers are ultimately told how many licenses are sold, because that directly impacts them. But as for what MacHeist's internal operating costs are, well they're a business too trying to make money like everyone else. I don't think we should begrudge them for it.

I do understand their choice of marketing message impacts this. Like I said, if there is signficant negative fallout, I'm sure they will be a little more careful next time. And from that, I think everyone truly does win- whether you buy a bundle or not, or whether as a dev you work with them or not.

BongoBox
Fri Dec 15 13:33:23 2006

Wow. A lot of the netaive comments make it sound like someone's forcing developers to participat ein MacHeist. But this is capatalism. If a developer doesn't want to join, then he/she shouldn't.

To me, this is like buying compilation music CDs. Artists sign up (probably at a loss) for the exposure, but it might not affect their CD sales at all. Is it the compilation CD itself, the industry, or maybe people just don't dig the music?

I've gotten all sorts of independant software all sorts of ways: demos, compilations like MacHeist, limitied freeware versions, etc. The stuff that I like, I buy, upgrade, etc. Call me crazy, but to me that's how it should work. And if a developer thinks MacHeist and its ilk will help, then go team. Otherwise, well, go team.

pegaze
Fri Dec 15 15:39:31 2006

The action initiated bny the French Mac-dedicated website macbidouille.com and its counterpart hardmac.com sounds like a another type of phylosophy to promote and support freeware and shareware:

Freeware/Shareware Developers: Advertise (almost) For Free on Hardmac.com

http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-12-12/#6222

maybe the best way for the Mac community

Nikolai Pigarev
Fri Dec 15 17:07:32 2006

I have to put my two cents in. Living in Russian, where all software sells for 3bucks on a dvd at a corner and i mean commercial soft. And sharewere sn you can get you all know how no one would ever think of buying apps. BUT I have gotten the bundle and friends have too cause it was just such a darm good fun!!! AND now i know of many cool developers and i have bookmarked their pages and will continue to buy and support. All that is 100 due to the HEIST

DDA
Fri Dec 15 21:36:24 2006

"Failing real numbers though, I'm forced to go with the numbers I have, and they don't seem especially fair."

And this is the heart of the bogus argument; that you (or anyone) can arbitrarily decide what is fair for someone else. The developers who participated thought it was fair (I assume they wouldn't have participated if they felt otherwise, as Gus did) but suddenly that's not good enough; it has to be fair by your (and Gus's) lights, too; there is a word for that and it's not a very nice one.

Suppose that they had only sold 100 bundles and thus probably lost money; is it still unfair to the developers? What if they sold exactly enough bundles to "break even"? When does it become unfair and why do you (or Gus or Gruber) gets to decide that rather than those involved?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is your blog but Gus and Gruber and you all have been making these pronouncements as fact, not as opinion (speculation, really, since we have no hard data other than failed deals); of course if you say you think it is a bad deal personally, people will just say, "Well, then, don't participate."

And yes, I take great offense at being label an "astroturfer" for espousing my beliefs; my only involved with MacHeist is as a participant.

Andrew Winder
Sat Dec 16 05:32:11 2006

I've never heard such rambling about properly supporting developers before in my life, and this is after working on solely opensource/freeware projects.  Seriously, it's time to cut it out, its getting to be too sore to hear it.  If you really want to get in to it about where the real support needs to be going, why not go to adiumx.com and find out.  It's the most full-featured, coherent IM-suite on the mac market, and its absolutely free, and opensource to boot.  Serious developer time goes into it too.  You want to support truely independant mac software, then go make a donation over there.

I just think its a bit of a crock to see this argument everywhere, and once again, the opensource apps get brushed aside.  Adium is a pure gem for OSX, and going back to iChat would be a serious pain in the ass after using it.  And I know theres a lot of users out there that feel the same way.  Mac Shareware isn't in dire straits, but the mac opensource scene is.  Thats where there needs to be an effort to make sure theres enough encouragement for developers to keep putting in their efforts.

And I'll just say, I've never seen so much arm-chair statistics work in my life without using at least one advanced prediction model.  Come on people, throw together some more meaningful and accurate testing, all it takes is a quick (yet painful) trip into Excel (-winces-) to throw together something a little more supportable and accurate.

don
Sun Dec 17 01:53:59 2006

Considering the fact that the two Audio Hijack sharewares have been DL'd enough to produce $7M in revenue for the Rogue Amoeba developers, what IS all this whining? What do YOU care how much of the money goes to the developer who made the decision to participate in MH? I paid my money because I thought that some of the software might be useful in the future - I'm still at 10.3.9. Otherwise, I probably would not have ventured into trying any of it. Had it not been for a reference to it on Mac Rumors, I never would have known about it. How many other users would have continued [living / working / using our Macs], unaware these products exist? Build a better mousetrap, but be sure you get out the news to the customers.

WillT
Sun Dec 17 02:09:54 2006

Where do you get a number like that don...?

Also, holy crap, what whining? There's discussion, yea, but what whining?

bc
Sun Dec 17 19:12:13 2006

I am with the devs on this one.  Been running my own profitable company for 10 years. 

Never EVER give your software away.  Period. 

Any claims that giving away software for promotional purposes are BS.  You can never reclaim the lost opportunity on those sales and will likely lose on support costs.  You're better off spending money on real marketing.

Eric
Mon Dec 18 05:50:33 2006

"I keep reading this "I will never buy your products because of this post" both here and at Gus' blog, and I don't get it.

If a user said something like that to me over me stating a valid opinion, I'd probably do a backflip. Who needs customers like that?"

Since I'm one of those who said that on Gus' blog, allow me to clarify:  It's not that he has a differing opinion than I do, it's how he presented his opinion.  The language and tone Gus used was not at all necessary to get his point across.  Instead of a mature "I disagree because of this, this, and this" he just rants and whines and demands that the MH folks release private information to, get this, disprove the assumptions he put out.  As a customer, how does that behavior in someone I might have to contact in the future for support appeal to me?  Easy...it doesn't.

Alex Rubin
Tue Dec 19 11:46:48 2006

I just want to point out, that every single dev who has participated in macheist has sad that they think it is a great idea and not one of them has said that they regretted doing it.  They managed to make a couple thousand dollars without having to advertise at all.  Also, many of the people who bought the bundle (including me) would have not bought any of the apps otherwise, therefore, the devs are getting money that they would not have otherwise, after all, even getting $1 for your application is better than getting nothing, right?  As for support costs, after reading the comments of the devs who participated in macheist, it appears that it really has not been much of a problem.  Lastly, as you (Paul) did not participate in macheist, its sort of hard to say that the other devs are being screwed as you do not have any first hand experience and all the devs who did participate hve said that they are glad that they did it.

Kiko
Thu Dec 21 14:47:57 2006

I will shamelessly copy and paste my previously-posted-in-another-thread :-)

"People used to pay $14k for Maya, now it's down to $1400. Do they feel ripped off? Not if they put that money to good use.

You buy stuff when you need it, not whe it's on sale. If it happens to be on sale just when you needed it, paint your self lucky.

I bought a pajama for my newborn baby at the company store for $19, next day it's on sale for $4.99. Was I miffed? A little bit, until I stumbled upon a nice bargain that got me FotoMagico, RapidWeaver and Devonthink really cheap (with many other nice apps that come in handy too) :-)

This three apps, plus the charity giving, where the main reason I bought the MacHeist bundle.
I must say that after learning about the controversy, I do think developers should have got a better deal, I'm sure they will get it the next time, and users will demand it too.

On the other hand , the macHeist (and the links thrown around during the controversy, such as MacSanta) has made me aware of the many useful Mac apps out there, and I'm now considering purchasing a few of them. I'm sure there are thousands that feel the same."

Kiko